If I may interject here....

Greg thanks for starting the conversation and for choosing such an easy topic like Total Depravity! Now I should qualify that I am not a five-point Calvinist, meaning that I think TULIP is a very crude and simplified way of distinguishing Calvin’s theology. His movements within each of these doctrines was more nuanced and allowed breathing room, however, there will be many who disagree with me at this point. With that being said let us proceed.

Total Depravity within the Reformed tradition has always dealt with the means by which people are saved. At this point, Greg and I will disagree but we do so because we see the same truth only in a different light. Reformed Christians believe that our human nature has been corrupted by sin. That means that if we were left to our own, we will always turn towards ourselves, we will always reject God; turn our backs on God’s will and God’s ways for our lives. With a belief that our very nature is sinful it only makes logical sense that our free will has been corrupted. Now Presbyterians make a distinction here because we do not believe that we have a ‘free’ will, emphasis on the free. We do have a ‘will’ but it always chooses sin over life and our will, consequently, seeks it own self-interests. So Presbyterians would argue, ‘is it really freedom that you can choose life and death?” or is freedom to live in complete joy and submission to Jesus Christ?(so if the son sets you free, you will indeed be free)

All of this culminates at the heart of the matter, can people earn their salvation? Since we are unable to lift ourselves out of this condition of sinfulness, we need some power or someone who can do for us what we cannot do for ourselves. That is why within Presbyterian theology, salvation is a true gift of grace that we did not deserve or could ever with a pure heart seek out God and receive. The work of salvation is ultimately the kindness and love of Jesus Christ towards his creation. This begs us to ask another question, how does God choose His recipients of grace? I’m sure we’ll touch on this topic later on in our conversations.

However the concept of Total Depravity has progressed over the past few centuries and we now understand that sin has a social dimension as well. As millions of people make selfish choices they impact the social structures of the world, so that institutions, nations, and legislature can be deemed sinful. As Reformed Christians we call this ‘social sin’ and believe that this is the real affront against the Kingdom of God. The social sins of people have created the different kingdoms of this world, which God’s Kingdom is constantly coming up against. So as reformed Christians who believe that the power of sin is real, and that sin can hold the minds and hearts of people captive, we believe that regenerated Christians are called as ambassadors into the other kingdoms of this world to bring about the ethics and morals of the Kingdom of God.

I leave us with this thought, no matter how deep sin has truly permeated our being, we can both agree that sin is destructive and seeks to consume our neighborhoods, families, and friends. So both Wesleyan and Presbyterian Christians must take a united stand against injustice, in all its forms, and be diligent about pursuing righteousness, so that Christ's witness may be more clearly seen and known.

Sincerely,

Oscar the Reformed

Introducing the Discussion

Oscar and I love theology.  We believe it makes a huge impact in how we live out our lives.  Some who read this may know little or nothing about the differences between two major schools of Protestant thought -- that of the Calvinist and the Wesleyan-Arminian.  And although the doctrinal differences can seem great at times, we both confess that earliest of Christians creeds:  "Jesus is Lord."  In a world of heated rhetoric, angry talk-shows, and bitter disputes, it is our conviction that as Christians we are called to model unity and respect even in the midst of disagreement.  Oscar and I may disagree, but when we do it is always with mutual respect, humility, and plenty of laughter.  He jokes with me that I just need to rest in the fact that God has chosen me.  And I think he's right.  I have much to learn from my friend Oscar.  And so we are embarking on this online journey not to prove each other wrong, but to hopefully sharpen our understanding of God and his marvelous grace.  I hope to set the record straight on many misperceptions that people have about the Wesleyan-Arminian perspective.  I'm sure Oscar is eager to do the same about the Reformed tradition.

For those unfamiliar with the debate, let me give a very short introduction.  Calvinists, also known as those from the Reformed tradition, follow the teachings of John Calvin and his followers.  They tend to emphasize the sovereignty of God first and foremost.  Those who are chosen (the elect) were ordained from the foundation of time to live in unity with God; that is, they were predestined for salvation before even being born.  Arminians (also known as Wesleyans or just Methodists who trace their heritage back to Jacob Arminius and John Wesley), on the other hand, emphasize human free will and believe that human beings have a choice in their own salvation to either accept or reject Christ.  Oscar may decide to revise this brief synopsis, but that is the best way I can describe the matter in a few sentences.  As important as these differences may seem, however, we agree on all matters that are central to the Christian faith -- that there is One God in Three Persons, that Jesus Christ is God Incarnate, that salvation comes by faith through grace alone, that Christ will return to establish his Kingdom forever, and that the Church is his Bride.  The central affirmations of the Apostles' Creed are the definition of orthodoxy and we are both certainly orthodox (or at least I hope so!).

I propose that for the first few posts, Oscar and I examine what some have called the five points of Calvinism which can be summarized using the acronym "TULIP."  This is what TULIP stands for:

T - total depravity
U - unconditional election
L - limited atonement
I - irresistable grace
P - perseverance of the saints

I'm suggesting that we take each point one at a time and talk about these doctrines in depth to see where we agree and disagree.  Wesleyans have the response to each of these in their doctrines of original sin (rightly defined), conditional election, unlimited atonement, human freedom in salvation, and the possibility of apostasy.

Oscar is free to post whenever he wants to and so am I.  So let the conversation begin!

(One final footnote:  neither of us are world-class experts on these matters.  We're just pastors who happen to be passionate about good theology.  If you want some more expertise scholarship on the matter, you can certainly find it.  But, at the very least, we will try to make what we write accessible to the common layman.)