Common Grace and Prevenient Grace

We don't have to rigidly follow the TULIP pattern if you think that would be unfair.  I only suggested it as a springboard for much deeper discussion.  It's interesting that you are not a five-pointer, Oscar.  What points do you accept or reject?

Thanks for your insight, Oscar, on Calvin's understanding of common grace.  That's all very interesting about common grace because as it was explained to me, common grace held in check human sinfulness enough to make it possible for us to live together in (at least somewhat) civil society.  It was almost a political aspect of Calvin's theology, but I see now that it is much more comprehensive.

As for your discussion of "will," I am wondering how "free" will really is a will at all if all we can ever do is choose the evil?  Doesn't that simply destroy the meaning of "will" entirely?  Doesn't having a will entail that there is at least a choice between two options.  Think of Adam and Eve in the garden (even if you read these stories as myth which I do).  I think the point from this narrative must be that from the very beginning God has given us a choice to obey or disobey.  Or would you say we are under a different "dispensation" now that we are living after the Fall?

Just so we're clear, Wesleyans also believe that salvation is a pure gift of God.  And we also believe that, were in not for the prevenient grace of God already at work in our hearts, we could not choose to accept his gift of salvation.  So perhaps the distinction between what you call common grace and what I call prevenient grace is really infinitesimal.  However, I do believe that God's gift of salvation is not something forced upon us.  We have a genuine choice to receive or reject that gift.  And I think that is one area we might disagree (if I am reading you correctly).

Another matter we certainly agree on is that of "social sin."  In fact, John Wesley took this so far as to picture a worldwide revival of all people and institutions which would sweep the globe and which would usher in God's kingdom at the eschaton.  We, too, believe in fallen systems which keep people in oppression and that these systems bear the mark of the Fall just as individuals do.  The redemption spoken of in Scripture is cosmic is scope -- and I know you agree with this from our previous talks.  Sadly, many evangelicals have so individualized salvation that we've lost sight of this very biblical vision (see the OT prophets, Romans 8, or the entire book of Revelation, for example).

The issue of disagreement does seem to be this:  "Where does human fallenness still have sway and where does God's grace (common or prevenient) UNDO or trump the effects of this corruption?"  In general, it seems that those of the Reformed perspective have a much darker view of what it mean to be human than do Wesleyans simply because we Wesleyans see God's grace in more places, in more systems, and in more people (as my friend Rick is suggesting very eloquently).  As a result, we are most optimistic about human nature, about God's presence in other religions, and about the ability of human systems to accomplish great good -- all the result of God's prevenient grace.

I certainly appreciate your admonition for us to unitedly oppose all sin and systemic evil despite our theological differences.  And I believe that is precisely what we are trying to do together here in Indianapolis.

Blessings,
Greg the Arminian

P.S.  Rick, I really loved your argument for a greater appreciation and emphasis on the goodness within humanity.  I think we can agree that we are mixtures.  Perhaps you are right that the doctrine of the fall has overshadowed the doctrine of "original goodness" and I do agree that this has had many negative impacts on evangelical spirituality.  I suppose we are all impacted by our context (I know that you're postmodern enough to agree with that) and as one who has been living in the inner city for almost three years now, I must say I am overwhelmed at times by the extend of original sin and how it has infiltrated every person and every structure in our community.  But, of course, even here the good is among us.